Science and Technology news... :: View topic - An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:

Guest

On 28 Jul, 16:31, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
[quote]Jan Panteltje wrote:
An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/07/27/eco.flourescent/index.html

So, LEDs?

Ultimately I think it>s going to be condoms, pills and abstinence, or
mass starvation.
[/quote]
It>s amazing how few people appreciate this. It doesn>t matter if we
reduce our per-capita pollution by 10 times, reduce out resource
consumption by a factor of 10 and travel 1/10 as much, wait for a bit
more exponential population growth and we>ll be back exactly where we
started. If the population could gently decline to half what it is
now, (without anyone needing to die of unnatural causes!) then
everyone could have the same amount of stuff each that we all have now
and practically solve most environmental and resource problems, (or we
could each have twice as much stuff with the same problems we have
now.) At some point, each generation will have to be no more populous
than the previous one, one way or another.

Chris

Eeyore · Guest

Kris Krieger wrote:

[quote]LEDs are still much more expensive, for the same light as
for example normal fluorescents with magnetic ballast.
The LED price will have to come down by a factor 100 or so before
people will want to buy those.
Thats is a problem.

True, but I was buying CFLs before they became popular, so I figure that
I helped a little to bring down the price of CFLs <G!
[/quote]
My first CFL cost a fortune. So much so I can>t remember, maybe $40 and
that>s say 15 years ago. It lasted for years and years and easily repaid
itself.

I am almost entirely CFL now. At 80c on offer why even bother thinking about
it ?

Graham

RST Engineering (jw) · Guest

Until somebody comes up with a way to make the process of dying more
pleasurable than the process of conception, we will continue to have a
problem.

Jim

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle

<chrisgj198@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:602378c5-6588-423f-aa40-bd437ef3b9ff@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...

At some point, each generation will have to be no more populous
[quote]than the previous one, one way or another.

Chris[/quote]

Joel Koltner · Guest

"RST Engineering (jw)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote in message
news:or-dncw9qM1LLBLVnZ2dnUVZ_vjinZ2d@supernews.com...
[quote]Until somebody comes up with a way to make the process of dying more
pleasurable than the process of conception, we will continue to have a
problem.
[/quote]
Ah, hence the motivation for the bit about the 72 virgins in heaven, eh?

:-)

(And before anyone flames me, yes, I know, the Koran doesn>t explicitly say,
"all shall receive 72 virgins!," it>s more about
metaphors/interpretations/translations/etc.)

This is an interesting article:
http://www.en-genius.net/includes/files/col_081307.pdf -- the author tore
apart and repaired some CFLs, and makes some good commentary on their design
as well.

---Joel

Emanuele · Guest

Jan Panteltje ha scritto:
[quote]An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/07/27/eco.flourescent/index.html

So, LEDs?
[/quote]

In this days i am writing an article about CFL and Leds.
I will post the link, just finished

These are the last related articles

http://dev.emcelettronica.com/solid-state-lighting
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/luminous-efficacy
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/power-led-efficiency-and-reliability
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/driving-leds-powerline
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/driving-leds-i
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/driving-leds-ii

any comments?

Emanuele

--
YOUR ELECTRONICS OPEN SOURCE * http://dev.emcelettronica.com

Jan Panteltje · Guest

On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:38:57 -0700) it happened "Joel Koltner"
<zapwireDASHgroups@yahoo.com> wrote in
<DKOjk.288708$6i4.266968@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com>:

[quote]This is an interesting article:
http://www.en-genius.net/includes/files/col_081307.pdf -- the author tore
apart and repaired some CFLs, and makes some good commentary on their design
[/quote]
Nice article, I also have an old CFL that has a chip in it, plus 2 transistors.
The chip had exploded.

Jan Panteltje · Guest

On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:36:37 +0200) it happened Emanuele
<emcelettronica@gmail.com> wrote in <g6p5m7$1q8f$1@newsreader2.mclink.it>:

[quote]Jan Panteltje ha scritto:
An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/07/27/eco.flourescent/index.html

So, LEDs?

In this days i am writing an article about CFL and Leds.
I will post the link, just finished

These are the last related articles

http://dev.emcelettronica.com/solid-state-lighting
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/luminous-efficacy
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/power-led-efficiency-and-reliability
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/driving-leds-powerline
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/driving-leds-i
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/driving-leds-ii

any comments?
[/quote]
Very nice site :-)

[quote]
Emanuele[/quote]

Richard Henry · Guest

On Jul 30, 12:38 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
[quote]
Over the years I have seen a bunch of news stories about attempts to
provide birth control pills in poor African nations. They provided the
pills and classes on how to use them, then ome back to find they weren>t
taken properly, or the women made jewlery out of them. It>s just like
drilling wells and providing modern farming tools. They tach them how to
farm, then the next year they just eat the seed corn and let the tools
rust away. Some people don>t want a better life, if it means they have
to do anything for themselves. that is why thye live like they do. It>s
the same, all over the world. If those people were in the US, they would
be trailer trash. If they wanted a better life, they would move to a
town where they could find work, better food, and a better life. You
just can>t help spme people.
[/quote]
Nonsense.

Kris Krieger · Guest

"RST Engineering $jw$" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote in news:or-
dncw9qM1LLBLVnZ2dnUVZ_vjinZ2d@supernews.com:

[quote]Until somebody comes up with a way to make the process of dying more
pleasurable than the process of conception, we will continue to have a
problem.

Jim

[/quote]
The problem isn>t sex, it>s attitudes regarding the "immorality" of
separating sex from reporduction.

Kris Krieger · Guest

chrisgj198@googlemail.com wrote in news:602378c5-6588-423f-aa40-
bd437ef3b9ff@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com:

[quote]On 28 Jul, 16:31, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
Jan Panteltje wrote:
An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/07/27/eco.flourescent/index.html

So, LEDs?

Ultimately I think it>s going to be condoms, pills and abstinence, or
mass starvation.

It>s amazing how few people appreciate this. It doesn>t matter if we
reduce our per-capita pollution by 10 times, reduce out resource
consumption by a factor of 10 and travel 1/10 as much, wait for a bit
more exponential population growth and we>ll be back exactly where we
started. If the population could gently decline to half what it is
now, (without anyone needing to die of unnatural causes!) then
everyone could have the same amount of stuff each that we all have now
and practically solve most environmental and resource problems, (or we
could each have twice as much stuff with the same problems we have
now.) At some point, each generation will have to be no more populous
than the previous one, one way or another.

Chris

[/quote]
True, but that>s probably the fastest way to get some people to talk abotu
shooting you - many people believe they have not only a right, but a duty,
to produce as many offspring as they possibly can, even when those
offspring must be supported by others to survive.

Also, from all I>ve read and heard, there is a US policy of not exporting
birth control to the poor in various nations, a policy which is not based
upon the would-be recipients own needs, desires, or choice, but rather,
upon the personal beliefs regarding morality of people here.

It>s one of those thing that seems obvious, but runs head-on into very
deeply-held beliffs which oppose voluntary population reduction -
curiously, a great people seem to oppose birth control *far* more bitterly
than they oppose war...

Kris Krieger · Guest

"Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgroups@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:DKOjk.288708$6i4.266968@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com:

[quote]"RST Engineering (jw)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote in message
news:or-dncw9qM1LLBLVnZ2dnUVZ_vjinZ2d@supernews.com...
Until somebody comes up with a way to make the process of dying more
pleasurable than the process of conception, we will continue to have
a problem.

Ah, hence the motivation for the bit about the 72 virgins in heaven,
eh?

:-)

(And before anyone flames me, yes, I know, the Koran doesn>t
explicitly say, "all shall receive 72 virgins!," it>s more about
metaphors/interpretations/translations/etc.)
[/quote]
Traditions, actually. Similar to the burka and hijab - the Quran speaks
about modesty, but I>ve gotten about halfway through (I have 2 translations
of it) and haven>t found specifics detailing what form that modesty should
or must take.

In a way, it>s like the idea of the Habits of Catholic nuns - originally,
from what I read and was told in Catechism, they were based upon the form
of dress that was common for Jewish women in the Middle East during the
time of Jesus.

It>s dicey to separate out what sacred texts quote Prophets as saying, from
that which is a matter of tradition. ANd it seems to me that the most
disagreements arise from the traditions.

OK, that was a bit of a digression, but goven your post, I thought it might
be of some marginal interest to you ;)

[quote]
This is an interesting article:
http://www.en-genius.net/includes/files/col_081307.pdf -- the author
tore apart and repaired some CFLs, and makes some good commentary on
their design as well.

---Joel

[/quote]

Kris Krieger · Guest

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:488FA6C4.F6853F0D@hotmail.com:

[quote]

Kris Krieger wrote:

LEDs are still much more expensive, for the same light as
for example normal fluorescents with magnetic ballast.
The LED price will have to come down by a factor 100 or so before
people will want to buy those.
Thats is a problem.

True, but I was buying CFLs before they became popular, so I figure
that I helped a little to bring down the price of CFLs <G!

My first CFL cost a fortune. So much so I can>t remember, maybe $40
and that>s say 15 years ago. It lasted for years and years and easily
repaid itself.

I am almost entirely CFL now. At 80c on offer why even bother thinking
about it ?

Graham

[/quote]
Currently, I only have one light fixture with incandescents, and that>s
only because I>d have to get out the extending stepladder and climb 10' to
reach the thing. My solution is that I never use that light, relying
instead on table/floor lamps (with CFLs).

Now here is an idea for an invention:
a reasonably-priced ceiling fan+light combo for high-ceiling areas that can
be lowered and raised.

Kris Krieger · Guest

Emanuele <emcelettronica@gmail.com> wrote in news:g6p5m7$1q8f$1
@newsreader2.mclink.it:

[quote]Jan Panteltje ha scritto:
An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/07/27/eco.flourescent/index.html

So, LEDs?

In this days i am writing an article about CFL and Leds.
I will post the link, just finished

These are the last related articles

http://dev.emcelettronica.com/solid-state-lighting
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/luminous-efficacy
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/power-led-efficiency-and-reliability
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/driving-leds-powerline
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/driving-leds-i
http://dev.emcelettronica.com/driving-leds-ii

any comments?

Emanuele

[/quote]
Nice reading. There is also an LED product, the links to which I>d lost :
( , which is a fiber, similar to an optical fiber but more flexible, which
emits light (from a source) not just at the tip, but rather, all along its
length. There ewere some examples I saw where it was iused in place of
neon, because they use LEDs as the source light. Some of the photos showed
uses that were definitely kitschy, but fun ;) I liked that product a
lot, but forgot what it>s called and haven>t been able to find it.

Dunno but you might be interested in adding it as a possible neon
alternative...?

Jim Thompson · Guest

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:40:16 -0500, Kris Krieger <me@dowmuff.in>
wrote:

[quote]chrisgj198@googlemail.com wrote in news:602378c5-6588-423f-aa40-
bd437ef3b9ff@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com:

On 28 Jul, 16:31, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
Jan Panteltje wrote:
An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/07/27/eco.flourescent/index.html

So, LEDs?

Ultimately I think it>s going to be condoms, pills and abstinence, or
mass starvation.

It>s amazing how few people appreciate this. It doesn>t matter if we
reduce our per-capita pollution by 10 times, reduce out resource
consumption by a factor of 10 and travel 1/10 as much, wait for a bit
more exponential population growth and we>ll be back exactly where we
started. If the population could gently decline to half what it is
now, (without anyone needing to die of unnatural causes!) then
everyone could have the same amount of stuff each that we all have now
and practically solve most environmental and resource problems, (or we
could each have twice as much stuff with the same problems we have
now.) At some point, each generation will have to be no more populous
than the previous one, one way or another.

Chris

True, but that>s probably the fastest way to get some people to talk abotu
shooting you - many people believe they have not only a right, but a duty,
to produce as many offspring as they possibly can, even when those
offspring must be supported by others to survive.

Also, from all I>ve read and heard, there is a US policy of not exporting
birth control to the poor in various nations, a policy which is not based
upon the would-be recipients own needs, desires, or choice, but rather,
upon the personal beliefs regarding morality of people here.
[/quote]
It>s promulgated by the Catholics. Don>t blame the U.S.

[quote]
It>s one of those thing that seems obvious, but runs head-on into very
deeply-held beliffs which oppose voluntary population reduction -
curiously, a great people seem to oppose birth control *far* more bitterly
than they oppose war...
[/quote]
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC>s and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Why are Europeons so ignorant?
They think they know it all about the U.S.A.
But never have bothered to visit

Don Klipstein · Guest

In article <g6p5m7$1q8f$1@newsreader2.mclink.it>, Emanuele wrote:
[quote]Jan Panteltje ha scritto:
An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/07/27/eco.flourescent/index.html

So, LEDs?

In this days i am writing an article about CFL and Leds.
I will post the link, just finished

These are the last related articles

SNIP[/quote]

[quote]http://dev.emcelettronica.com/luminous-efficacy
[/quote]
On the 160 lm/W prototype, noted on the graph as a Cree one: Can you
cite a link to it? I frequently check into the "Press Room" section of
Cree>s website and I have yet to hear of this.

On the statement that 150-160 lumen/watt LEDs will be in production
within 1 or 2 years: It appeared to me to take 3 years from announcement
of a prototype to availability of production units for 60 lumens/watt.

You state that 1, 3 and 5 watt HPLEDs have efficacies 10 times more than
that of incandescents. Ones achieving 80-100 lumens/watt do so at 350 mA,
which means slightly over 1 watt. Efficacy is less at higher currents,
even with Cree XRE, Seoul Semiconductor P4, and Lumileds Luxeon Rebel and
Luxeon K2/TFFC.
For example, according to Lumileds' "DS60" datasheet, the top rank of
Luxeon K2/TFFC has typical output of 170 lumens at 700 mA (and typical
voltage drop around 3.5 volts), for 69 lumens/watt. This figure decreases
as current increases from there. The best avauilable from Cree are a
little better.

I have yet to know of an available 3 watt LED that achieves 100
lumens/watt at 3 watts. Can you cite one that I can buy?

As for that chart showing among other things percentage of light from
the lamp exiting the luminaire ("efficienza corpo radiante"), where does
the 30-50% figure for incandescents, repeated for halogens, come from?
That chart also has this being 50-60% for CFLs but 95% for LEDs.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)


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