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GoldLions · Guest

On Jul 23, 3:50ï¿½am, Day Brown <daybr...@daybrown.org> wrote:

[quote]And, SOMETHING, eliminated all but seven of the mtDNA lines among the
Native Europeans. I cant come up with any other explanation for that. I
have yet to see anyone else try. Warriors wipe out other Y chromosome
lines but keep all the females.
[/quote]
==============================================
Only one thing comes to mind for me. Life was brutal and short back
then leaving only a remnant to survive. Plagues, disease, hereditary
disorders, territorial/mate disputes, mate abuse, war, wild animals,
child birth,.......yep pretty hard being a female.

Rich Travsky · Guest

Day Brown wrote:
[quote]
GoldLions wrote:
GOLDLIONS writes; Excellent point DAY, but what has H.S. learned from
Neanderthal? So far no one really knows except at one time they shared
the same tooling industry. However one thing is clear, they didn>t
seem to feel any need to invent more than what they felt was necessary
living day by day even after 500,000 years time?
Much of the HNS behavior was instinctive; they didnt havta think
about how to make a stone point. Which is why it didnt change.
[/quote]
Making a stone point is instinctive????

Rubbish.

GoldLions · Guest

On Jul 23, 12:29ï¿½pm, Rich Travsky <traRvE...@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote:
[quote]Much of the HNS behavior was instinctive; they didnt havta think
about how to make a stone point. Which is why it didnt change.

RICH TRAVSKYwrites;> Making a stone point is instinctive????
Rubbish.
====================================================[/quote]
Hello Rich,

I>ve only mentioned that much of Neanderthal>s BEHAVOR was
instinctive.
What do you find fasinating about Neanderthals BTW?

Lee Olsen · Guest

On Jul 23, 7:26 pm, GoldLions <GoldLi...@aol.com> wrote:

[quote] I>ve only mentioned that much of Neanderthal>s BEHAVOR was
instinctive.
[/quote]
Would you mind citing a source for that statement?

GoldLions · Guest

On Jul 23, 11:03ï¿½pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 7:26ï¿½pm, GoldLions <GoldLi...@aol.com> wrote:

ï¿½ ï¿½ I>ve only mentioned that much of Neanderthal>s BEHAVOR was
instinctive.

Would you mind citing a source for that statement?
[/quote]
=====================================
Sure Lee, hope this one helps.

http://www.newser.com/story/19767.html

BTW I also saw this mentioned before on another lengthly science
article but was unable to locate it.

Day Brown · Guest

GoldLions wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 3:50ï¿½am, Day Brown <daybr...@daybrown.org> wrote:

And, SOMETHING, eliminated all but seven of the mtDNA lines among the
Native Europeans. I cant come up with any other explanation for that. I
have yet to see anyone else try. Warriors wipe out other Y chromosome
lines but keep all the females.

Only one thing comes to mind for me. Life was brutal and short back
then leaving only a remnant to survive. Plagues, disease, hereditary
disorders, territorial/mate disputes, mate abuse, war, wild animals,
child birth,.......yep pretty hard being a female.
Yeah, but that was going on everywhere. Yet only in Europe did it affect[/quote]
the females.

A point missed with donkeys and horses, which Kauffman, "The Origins of
Order" deals with, is that they are mass herd animals in which genetic
innovation is washed out by the sheer numbers. "Children of the Ice
Age", by Stanley, reports that early hominids lived in the transition
zone between jungle and savannah, but that with the onset of the ice
ages, that zone shrank dramatically and fragmented, isolating hominid
populations. Which isnt what went on with savannah herbivores- horses.

Kauffman would do well to have html links in his book; he has some real
nice multidimensional graphics that>d be gonzo easier to understand from
which he draws his conclusions. But he maps out sharp adaptation peaks
in the species which are in isolated gene pools, then shows how when the
climate or whatever changes, these new evolutionary adaptations that are
so much more superior rapidly spread out in wider new ecosystems. As the
hominds have done. And of course, since hominids are now a mass herd,
there is a drift twards mediocrity that disturbs some people.

It>d help if the Neanderthal link showed reconstructions of the faces,
then I think we>d see how remarkably varied they were, which is what we
would expect of a line that was so often so inbred.

It shows us one skull from the Levant, 70,000 BP, which it says is
hybrid. What it does not say, is that there was an expansion from the
Levant in this era back into Northern Africa that looks like hominids in
the livestock business; ie, the Semites.

There other clues in history suggesting the pharonic houses were whiter
than the lower classes, which we>d expect of the long history of power
elites and racism. But they didnt come down from the north; they>d been
there all along, and when the climate in the Sahara dried out, came in
to replace the more traditionally African gene lines in the Nile valley.

The donkey link notes domestic and wild horses have different numbers of
chromosomes, yet breed anyway. It dont mention that this all happened in
the mere last 6000 years since domestication. Moreover, he>s unaware, so
far as I can see, of epigenetics, and the effect it has on empowering or
disempowering sections of code. This complicates the possible outcomes
of inbreeding and genetic drift by an order of magnitude, making what
are already guesses, which he alludes to, even less reliable.

Day Brown · Guest

A lotta animals have behavior patterns as complex as flaking a point.
The action of a border collie in responding to command and moving sheep
is a fucking work of art.

What the Neanderthals gave Cro Magnon was the kind of linear thinking to
calculate where megafauna would be at a certain point in time across a
vast, and largely unseen complicated ice age landscape.

Hunting in Africa was a whole different trip. You could tell where the
herd was, and the climate was stable enuf that the herds used the same
trails every year at the same time.

Hunters developed the running endurance to get into position with an eye
on the prey the whole time. They didnt have nearly the area to deal with
either. Tropical forest tribal hunting territory are often only 100 sq
miles. but in Ice Age Europe, there were 4 million square miles shared
by only 50,000 hunters max. Each hunter had as much territory as a whole
tribe of hunters had in the tropics.

The mapping skill is evident in the number of chess players.

Lee Olsen · Guest

On Jul 23, 10:38 pm, GoldLions <GoldLi...@aol.com> wrote:

[quote]
http://www.newser.com/story/19767.html
[/quote]
OK, thanks. Just so long as you weren>t leaving out Hs, chimps,
wolverines etc. temper tantrums also.

Lee Olsen · Guest

On Jul 23, 11:57 pm, Day Brown <daybr...@daybrown.org> wrote:
[quote]A lotta animals have behavior patterns as complex as flaking a point.
[/quote]
Name one.

[quote]The action of a border collie in responding to command and moving sheep
is a fucking work of art.
[/quote]
Collies can make a point??? Why can>t you make a point unless someone
shows you
how? You can>t teach a chimp how to flake a point, what chance would
you have with a collie?

[quote]
What the Neanderthals gave Cro Magnon was the kind of linear thinking to
calculate where megafauna would be at a certain point in time across a
vast, and largely unseen complicated ice age landscape.
[/quote]
How do you know that? Please cite a source.

[quote]
Hunting in Africa was a whole different trip. You could tell where the
herd was, and the climate was stable enuf that the herds used the same
trails every year at the same time.
[/quote]
Reindeer bones are found in caves year after year, they certainly
returned close
enough to the cave to get eaten in them.

[quote]
Hunters developed the running endurance to get into position with an eye
on the prey the whole time. They didnt have nearly the area to deal with
either. Tropical forest tribal hunting territory are often only 100 sq
miles. but in Ice Age Europe, there were 4 million square miles shared
by only 50,000 hunters max. Each hunter had as much territory as a whole
tribe of hunters had in the tropics.
[/quote]
Tracks in snow would be a dead give-a-way not found in Africa.
During the glacial maximums, people did not occupy 4 milliom sq miles
of Europe.
In both places, Africa and Europe, people were distributed in
approximately the same ratios
as the carrying capacity of the animals that were being eaten. IOW,
if there were X number of reindeer,
there were also X number of predators, including humans. The numbers
varied, just as they do now.

[quote]
The mapping skill is evident in the number of chess players.
[/quote]
Great point. Neither collies or humans can play chess instinctively or
build a point.
You are confusing capacity with instinct. Humans and Neandertals have
it and collies don>t for making tools.
Sheep goes one way, collie cuts him off. There is nothing in the
collies thinking that requires three-demensional visualisation that
one needs to flake a point.

GoldLions · Guest

[quote]On Jul 23, 11:57 pm, Day Brown <daybr...@daybrown.org> wrote:
A lotta animals have behavior patterns as complex as flaking a point.

LEE OLSEN writes;> Name one.[/quote]
===================================================

Hello Lee,

I think Day was just explaining how certain animals, humans included,
do have certain instinctual behaviors.
Example; A very child will POINT with their hands/fingers to something
they want which is something chimps never are seen to do in the wild.

What Day was saying here is since Neanderthal being a hunter with a
diet which consisted mostly of meat would know instinctively to make
various types of tools in order to survive.

It doesn>t take a rocket scientist to know rocks are harder than wood
and can be sharper if chipped or broken.
Heck, even chimps have been observed making two types of stick or twig
tools to get certain types of prey such as termites or to stab at some
small animal like a bush baby hiding in a tree limb or trunk where
they cannot reach.

And with a brain size larger than our own, it>s a pretty safe bet to
say that Neanderthals are much smarter than chimps.

===========================================================

daybrown.org> wrote:> > The action of a border collie in responding to
command and moving sheep
[quote]is a fucking work of art.

LEE OLSEN writes;> Collies can make a point??? Why can>t you make a[/quote]
point unless someone
[quote]shows you
how? You can>t teach a chimp how to flake a point, what chance would
you have with a collie?
==========================================================[/quote]

Ummmmm, I REALLY don>t see WHERE Day was ever implying that Collies
instinctively create stone tools or tools of any kind in his reply to
my post.

What he was saying is how animals SUCH as a collie DO have certain
instinctual behaviors. Please re read what he wrote again.

=======================================================
daybrown.org> wrote: > What the Neanderthals gave Cro Magnon was the
kind of linear thinking to calculate where megafauna would be at a
certain point in time across a vast, and largely unseen complicated
ice age landscape.

LEE OLSEN writes;> > How do you know that? Please cite a source.

Lee, sometimes creative speculation is fun to share, and by sharing
new and different ideas it may later provide better insight to others
the missing clues we cannot see directly in the fossil record. In this
case possible clues of Neanderthal/Sapiens interactions and the
results from learning from each other.

Day suggests that it>s possible that the two hominids may have had
peaceful relations with each other while I generally speculate the
opposite to be true.
==========================================

daybrown.org> wrote:> Hunting in Africa was a whole different trip.
You could tell where the
[quote]herd was, and the climate was stable enuf that the herds used the same
trails every year at the same time.

LEE OLSEN writes;> Reindeer bones are found in caves year after[/quote]
year, they certainly
[quote]returned close
enough to the cave to get eaten in them.
=====================================[/quote]

Lee, many animals have heighten senses such as hearing, sight and
smell and I>m sure reindeer can sense from various odors, sounds, etc,
that some predator be it human, Neanderthal or bear whatever and not
venture too close to a location where this predator or groups may be.
That>s also another example of instinctual behavior...
==================================================

daybrown.org> wrote:> > Hunters developed the running endurance to get
into position with an eye> > on the prey the whole time. They didnt
have nearly the area to deal with
[quote]either. Tropical forest tribal hunting territory are often only 100 sq
miles. but in Ice Age Europe, there were 4 million square miles shared
by only 50,000 hunters max. Each hunter had as much territory as a whole
tribe of hunters had in the tropics.
[/quote]

LEE OLSEN writes;> > Tracks in snow would be a dead give-a-way not
found in Africa.

TRUE, good point made but what about between the seasons in areas
where the snow eventually thawed out?

=========================================================

LEE OLSEN writes;> > During the glacial maximums, people did not
occupy 4 milliom sq miles
[quote]of Europe.
[/quote]
We don>t really know at this point how many different tribes there
were at living at certain locations but it>s safe to say that the
numbers were generally small at this time when compared to tribes
living in the tropics. How large their land territories were varies
due to both the size/strength of the tribes as well as for the
abundance of prey in the areas hunted.

LEE OLSEN writes;> > In both places, Africa and Europe, people were
distributed in
[quote]approximately the same ratios
as the carrying capacity of the animals that were being eaten.IOW,
if there were X number of reindeer,
there were also X number of predators, including humans. The numbers
varied, just as they do now.
[/quote]

Not totally true, in locations where and when prey was scarce ice age
hunters may had to travel for days on foot to find certain types prey
similar to fashion of how the Eskimos hunted before they started to
use more modern day tools and vehicles.
========================================================

daybrown.org> wrote:> > The mapping skill is evident in the number of
chess players.
[quote]
LEE OLSEN writes;> Great point. Neither collies or humans can play[/quote]
chess instinctively or
[quote]build a point. You are confusing capacity with instinct.
Humans and Neandertals have
it and collies don>t for making tools.
Sheep goes one way, collie cuts him off. There is nothing in the
collies thinking that requires three-demensional visualisation that
one needs to flake a point.
[/quote]
Please re read Day>s post again, he never said Collies made tools or
have behavioral instincts to do so.
He was just giving us examples how certain instinctual behaviors can
shape or influence certain skills based on it>s intelligence levels.

Hope this helps and that your day was a good one. Cheers.

(BTW, To Day Brown; Will respond to your insightful replies later
OK? Hope your day is a good one as well.)

Rich Travsky · Guest

GoldLions wrote:
[quote]
On Jul 23, 12:29ï¿½pm, Rich Travsky <traRvE...@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote:
Much of the HNS behavior was instinctive; they didnt havta think
about how to make a stone point. Which is why it didnt change.

RICH TRAVSKYwrites;> Making a stone point is instinctive????
Rubbish.
=====================================================

Hello Rich,

I>ve only mentioned that much of Neanderthal>s BEHAVOR was
instinctive.
[/quote]
Um, no, you said

Much of the HNS behavior was instinctive; they didnt havta think
about how to make a stone point.

which clearly implies you consider making a stone point to be instinctive...

> What do you find fasinating about Neanderthals BTW?

Rich Travsky · Guest

GoldLions wrote:
[quote]
On Jul 23, 11:03ï¿½pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 23, 7:26ï¿½pm, GoldLions <GoldLi...@aol.com> wrote:

ï¿½ ï¿½ I>ve only mentioned that much of Neanderthal>s BEHAVOR was
instinctive.

Would you mind citing a source for that statement?

======================================

Sure Lee, hope this one helps.

http://www.newser.com/story/19767.html

BTW I also saw this mentioned before on another lengthly science
article but was unable to locate it.
[/quote]
" Stop Temper Tantrums Like a Caveman" ???

What does that have to do with making a stone point?

Lee Olsen · Guest

On Jul 24, 7:56 am, GoldLions <GoldLi...@aol.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 11:57 pm, Day Brown <daybr...@daybrown.org> wrote:
A lotta animals have behavior patterns as complex as flaking a point.

LEE OLSEN writes;> Name one.
==================================================
Hello Lee,

I think Day was just explaining how certain animals, humans included,
do have certain instinctual behaviors.
[/quote]
I think Day wasn>t:

[quote]On Jul 23, 11:57 pm, Day Brown <daybr...@daybrown.org> wrote:
A lotta animals have behavior patterns as complex as flaking a point.
[/quote]
That statement is total rubbish, period.

[quote]What Day was saying here is since Neanderthal being a hunter with a
diet which consisted mostly of meat would know instinctively to make
various types of tools in order to survive.
[/quote]
Then who said this????

[quote]Much of the HNS behavior was instinctive; they didnt havta think
about how to make a stone point. Which is why it didnt change.
[/quote]
More rubbish, just as Rich pointed out.

Lee Olsen · Guest

On Jul 24, 1:02Â pm, Day Brown <daybr...@daybrown.org> wrote:
[quote]Rich Travsky wrote:
GoldLions wrote:
On Jul 23, 12:29ï¿½pm, Rich Travsky <traRvE...@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote:
Much of the HNS behavior was instinctive; they didnt havta think
about how to make a stone point. Which is why it didnt change.
RICH TRAVSKYwrites;> Making a stone point is instinctive????
Rubbish.
====================================================
Hello Rich,

Â Â I>ve only mentioned that much of Neanderthal>s BEHAVOR was
instinctive.

Um, no, you said

Â Much of the HNS behavior was instinctive; they didnt havta think
Â about how to make a stone point.

which clearly implies you consider making a stone point to be instinctive...

What do you find fasinating about Neanderthals BTW?

I was the one who said making a point was instinctive because the form
did not change for a hundred thousand years. Instinctive behavior
patterns are more durable than those which are learned, which rapidly
adapt to changing conditions.

They had brains bigger than yours. Or, I should say, skulls, cause we
really dont know the ratio of gray to white matter inside the case. I
didnt notice, in the link Goldlions provided, that many of the HNS
skulls had their front teeth bashed in or skulls with the characteristic
fractures on the left side from a blow in battle.

Which suggests a lower need for the white matter to cushion the gray.
So, if they werent using the bigger brain so much for RAM, then they>re
using it for ROM.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -[/quote]

Lee Olsen · Guest

On Jul 24, 1:02 pm, Day Brown <daybr...@daybrown.org> wrote:

[quote]I was the one who said making a point was instinctive because the form
did not change for a hundred thousand years.
[/quote]
That is flat wrong and you can>t find a cite to back up your claim.


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