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disgoftunwells · Guest

On 26 Jul, 01:19, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:17:58 -0700 (PDT), disgoftunwells

disgoftunwe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
On 23 Jul, 23:03, BretCah...@peoplepc.com wrote:
The Tesla is powered by 7,000 Li-Ion laptop batteries for an output of
200 kW.

A similarly powered 300 kW electric tractor (10,500 batteries) would
turn a 400 hp articulated 22 gallon/hour diesel tractor every which
way but loose in a tractor pull which apparently is vitally necessary
education as well as entertainment for those too ignorant do basic
IEOR calculations.

Running either tractor wide open to work a square mile at 0.5 mph
would take 3 months of 7 day work weeks at 8 hours / day.

It would also require 17,000 gallons of diesel.

Today the cost is "only" $80,000 for the diesel.

In 2 years, with the price of hydrocarbon fuel spiraling by 30% a
year, that cost will be $150,000/yr.

In six years the cost of the fuel will be half a million dollars.

And that>s just for one field.

Maybe if we have massive truck and bus conversion to natural gas --
include farm tractors in Pickens plan -- the price will "only" be
$350,000/field in 6 years.

The battery tractor would be cheaper even if grid power tripled and
even if you went to your overpriced Apple Inc. store and bought the
batteries one by one and wired them together one by one yourself.

Now, if you don>t believe laptop batteries exist, please go to alt.
conspiracy and post there.

Bret Cahill

I>ve read that over time, crop fields suffer from the compression of
tractor wheels.

Would it make sense, for heavily utilised fields, to lay down a rail
track?

Whatever the tractor / harvester is doing, it could be a 20m wide
vehicle necessitating a single track spaced every 20m.

The track could also be used to provide electric power.

A few details to work out about how the tractor changes track at the
end of the rails.

Why not monorails in all the cornfields? Then the electric power
could be provided by the rail, and there would be zero unnecessary
contact with the soil. And you could give tourists rides in the off
season.

Or just use nuclear powered helicopters for plowing; as a bonus,
they>d blow the bugs away, and irradiate the produce.

I you bury superconductors under the crop rows, you could use a maglev
tractor. Put Luke Skywalker back on the farm.

Or the San Francisco farming technique, cable-car tractors. No power
needed at all!

We>ll teach all those dumb farmers how to do it right.

Quite funny, but actually cable car tractors could be quite feasible[/quote]
and low cost. They>d run on wheels - just be pulled from a fixed
motor, instead of from an oxen.

Besides, there>s nothing new about engineers teaching farmers (dumb
one and smart ones) how to do it right. If they didn>t, farmers would
still be using oxen.

Mark · Guest

re cables to power electric tractors...

see "center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.

Mark

John Larkin · Guest

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:02:16 -0700 (PDT), disgoftunwells
<disgoftunwells@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

[quote]On 26 Jul, 01:19, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:17:58 -0700 (PDT), disgoftunwells

disgoftunwe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
On 23 Jul, 23:03, BretCah...@peoplepc.com wrote:
The Tesla is powered by 7,000 Li-Ion laptop batteries for an output of
200 kW.

A similarly powered 300 kW electric tractor (10,500 batteries) would
turn a 400 hp articulated 22 gallon/hour diesel tractor every which
way but loose in a tractor pull which apparently is vitally necessary
education as well as entertainment for those too ignorant do basic
IEOR calculations.

Running either tractor wide open to work a square mile at 0.5 mph
would take 3 months of 7 day work weeks at 8 hours / day.

It would also require 17,000 gallons of diesel.

Today the cost is "only" $80,000 for the diesel.

In 2 years, with the price of hydrocarbon fuel spiraling by 30% a
year, that cost will be $150,000/yr.

In six years the cost of the fuel will be half a million dollars.

And that>s just for one field.

Maybe if we have massive truck and bus conversion to natural gas --
include farm tractors in Pickens plan -- the price will "only" be
$350,000/field in 6 years.

The battery tractor would be cheaper even if grid power tripled and
even if you went to your overpriced Apple Inc. store and bought the
batteries one by one and wired them together one by one yourself.

Now, if you don>t believe laptop batteries exist, please go to alt.
conspiracy and post there.

Bret Cahill

I>ve read that over time, crop fields suffer from the compression of
tractor wheels.

Would it make sense, for heavily utilised fields, to lay down a rail
track?

Whatever the tractor / harvester is doing, it could be a 20m wide
vehicle necessitating a single track spaced every 20m.

The track could also be used to provide electric power.

A few details to work out about how the tractor changes track at the
end of the rails.

Why not monorails in all the cornfields? Then the electric power
could be provided by the rail, and there would be zero unnecessary
contact with the soil. And you could give tourists rides in the off
season.

Or just use nuclear powered helicopters for plowing; as a bonus,
they>d blow the bugs away, and irradiate the produce.

I you bury superconductors under the crop rows, you could use a maglev
tractor. Put Luke Skywalker back on the farm.

Or the San Francisco farming technique, cable-car tractors. No power
needed at all!

We>ll teach all those dumb farmers how to do it right.

Quite funny, but actually cable car tractors could be quite feasible
and low cost. They>d run on wheels - just be pulled from a fixed
motor, instead of from an oxen.
[/quote]
So instead of putting an engine on the tractor, you>d have it located
at the end of each (perfectly straight) row, pulling on a cable
attached to the tractor, somehow not tearing up the rows and the crops
between. And every time the tractor turns, the engine vehicle has to
move down one row, with nothing getting tangled. We>d make all the
rows somewhat shorter to allow for the extra machinery and maneuvering
room. Of course, the plowing patterns couldn>t be a serpentine any
more - the cable doesn>t allow that - but a comb shape, with a
plow-and-backtrack pattern for every row. That will take a little more
time (like, 2x), and will work fine as soon as you figure out how to
make a cable push as well as pull. [1]

We all know that farmers have a lot of spare time, so won>t mind
increasing their plowing time by, say, 6:1 or so.

[quote]
Besides, there>s nothing new about engineers teaching farmers (dumb
one and smart ones) how to do it right. If they didn>t, farmers would
still be using oxen.
[/quote]
The aggies of the nation thank you. [2]

John

[1] San Francisco>s cable cars only go in one direction over each
slot. Maybe you could help them, too.

[2] Are you an engineer?

disgoftunwells · Guest

On 29 Jul, 16:23, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
[quote]On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:02:16 -0700 (PDT), disgoftunwells

disgoftunwe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
On 26 Jul, 01:19, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:17:58 -0700 (PDT), disgoftunwells

disgoftunwe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
On 23 Jul, 23:03, BretCah...@peoplepc.com wrote:
The Tesla is powered by 7,000 Li-Ion laptop batteries for an output of
200 kW.

A similarly powered 300 kW electric tractor (10,500 batteries) would
turn a 400 hp articulated 22 gallon/hour diesel tractor every which
way but loose in a tractor pull which apparently is vitally necessary
education as well as entertainment for those too ignorant do basic
IEOR calculations.

Running either tractor wide open to work a square mile at 0.5 mph
would take 3 months of 7 day work weeks at 8 hours / day.

It would also require 17,000 gallons of diesel.

Today the cost is "only" $80,000 for the diesel.

In 2 years, with the price of hydrocarbon fuel spiraling by 30% a
year, that cost will be $150,000/yr.

In six years the cost of the fuel will be half a million dollars.

And that>s just for one field.

Maybe if we have massive truck and bus conversion to natural gas --
include farm tractors in Pickens plan -- the price will "only" be
$350,000/field in 6 years.

The battery tractor would be cheaper even if grid power tripled and
even if you went to your overpriced Apple Inc. store and bought the
batteries one by one and wired them together one by one yourself.

Now, if you don>t believe laptop batteries exist, please go to alt.
conspiracy and post there.

Bret Cahill

I>ve read that over time, crop fields suffer from the compression of
tractor wheels.

Would it make sense, for heavily utilised fields, to lay down a rail
track?

Whatever the tractor / harvester is doing, it could be a 20m wide
vehicle necessitating a single track spaced every 20m.

The track could also be used to provide electric power.

A few details to work out about how the tractor changes track at the
end of the rails.

Why not monorails in all the cornfields? Then the electric power
could be provided by the rail, and there would be zero unnecessary
contact with the soil. And you could give tourists rides in the off
season.

Or just use nuclear powered helicopters for plowing; as a bonus,
they>d blow the bugs away, and irradiate the produce.

I you bury superconductors under the crop rows, you could use a maglev
tractor. Put Luke Skywalker back on the farm.

Or the San Francisco farming technique, cable-car tractors. No power
needed at all!

We>ll teach all those dumb farmers how to do it right.

Quite funny, but actually cable car tractors could be quite feasible
and low cost. They>d run on wheels - just be pulled from a fixed
motor, instead of from an oxen.

So instead of putting an engine on the tractor, you>d have it located
at the end of each (perfectly straight) row, pulling on a cable
attached to the tractor, somehow not tearing up the rows and the crops
between. And every time the tractor turns, the engine vehicle has to
move down one row, with nothing getting tangled. We>d make all the
rows somewhat shorter to allow for the extra machinery and maneuvering
room. Of course, the plowing patterns couldn>t be a serpentine any
more - the cable doesn>t allow that - but a comb shape, with a
plow-and-backtrack pattern for every row. That will take a little more
time (like, 2x), and will work fine as soon as you figure out how to
make a cable push as well as pull. [1]

Thanks to Mark Thorson for pointing out this was done a long time ago.[/quote]

The optimum way to plough a field is influenced by the relative values
of fuel costs, labour costs, equipment costs, yield levels.

Fuel has been rather cheap over the last 100 years or so. as it gets
more expensive methods may change.

The technique above would work best with longer rows, with the plough
or harvester running between two movable points. No reason why it
can>t be just as fast as normal ploughing, with less room required for
the wheels.

Probably works best on large prarie fields.

[quote]We all know that farmers have a lot of spare time, so won>t mind
increasing their plowing time by, say, 6:1 or so.

6:1? Why not make it 100:1?[/quote]

I would have thought sitting in a control centre controlling multiple
units would be faster. Actually, farm labour must be cheap otherwise
most of this would have automated long ago. Or at least remote
controlled.
[quote]

Besides, there>s nothing new about engineers teaching farmers (dumb
one and smart ones) how to do it right. If they didn>t, farmers would
still be using oxen.

The aggies of the nation thank you. [2]

John

[1] San Francisco>s cable cars only go in one direction over each
slot. Maybe you could help them, too.

They>re a tourist attraction, not an efficient people mover.[/quote]

[quote][2] Are you an engineer?
[/quote]
Yes

Paul E. Schoen · Guest

"Mark" <makolber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f6d3e4f1-5159-4e42-b9fb-dd040688ec27@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
[quote]re cables to power electric tractors...

see "center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.
[/quote]
I agree. I posted some specific figures to prove the basic practicality of
using a "low voltage" 480 VAC 3 phase service cable that can drive at least
a 100 HP electric motor on a 250 ft pivot arm, and with a bit of
"Enginuity" a system could be rigged up where the tractor could have more
degrees of freedom than a circular path, if needed.

Figuring out the details, building a prototype, and doing some actual field
testing would be a fascinating and worthwhile challenge, probably well
suited to a college with agricultural and engineering departments. But I
think this entire discussion has degraded to the point of uselessness.

Paul

Mark Thorson · Guest

John Larkin wrote:
[quote]
So instead of putting an engine on the tractor, you>d have it located
at the end of each (perfectly straight) row, pulling on a cable
attached to the tractor, somehow not tearing up the rows and the crops
between. And every time the tractor turns, the engine vehicle has to
move down one row, with nothing getting tangled. We>d make all the
rows somewhat shorter to allow for the extra machinery and maneuvering
room. Of course, the plowing patterns couldn>t be a serpentine any
more - the cable doesn>t allow that - but a comb shape, with a
plow-and-backtrack pattern for every row. That will take a little more
time (like, 2x), and will work fine as soon as you figure out how to
make a cable push as well as pull. [1]
[/quote]
It>s called a "ploughing engine". They were used
in the days of steam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_engine#Ploughing_engine

They were used in pairs, one on each side of the field.

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]re cables to power electric tractors...

see ï¿½"center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.
I agree. I posted some specific figures to prove the basic practicality of
using a "low voltage" 480 VAC 3 phase service cable that can drive at least
a 100 HP electric motor on a 250 ft pivot arm, and with a bit of
"Enginuity" a system could be rigged up where the tractor could have more
degrees of freedom than a circular path, if needed.
[/quote]
Farmers seem to be competent at dealing with all kinds of Rube
Goldberg impliments.

Even so KISS should prevail. A pivot could run unattended at night
moving the drive wheels and impliments radially for a spiral furrow.

[quote]Figuring out the details, building a prototype, and doing some actual field
testing would be a fascinating and worthwhile challenge, probably well
suited to a college with agricultural and engineering departments.
[/quote]
An ag extension center.

Bret Cahill

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]see ï¿½"center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.
[/quote]
I posted the "super pivot" on sci.energy last summer. The idea was to
get rid of the tractor altogether, just keep the wheels motor and the
impliments.

A conventional pivot moves pretty slow so the super pivot could have
several concentric areas so the tangential velocity wouldn>t vary too
much from the outer "tip speed" to the inner "boss."

A poster claiming to be from Nebraska said a conventional pivot sells
for $45,000, a pretty good deal considering the distance it spans. In
something like a berry field it would pay for itself in a matter of
months.

A pivot, however, requires flat land and some of the square field is
"wasted." Moreover, a grid-battery tractor is the cheapest way to get
the foot in the E feld door.

One wire.

One battery.

One tractor with the diesel replaced with an electric motor.

Do that first _then_ you can get fancy.

Bret Cahill

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]re cables to power electric tractors...

see ï¿½"center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.

ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ There>s a world of difference in the power requirements. ï¿½
[/quote]
The real concern is how to manage the cable. The appeal of straight
grid is undeniable: Grid is only _one fourth_ the cost of diesel and
"dropping."

Grid-battery is now about 3/4ths the cost of diesel but it>s dropping
just as fast.

On the other hand, while farmers are pretty good at dealing with Rube
Goldberg contraptions -- some of the impliments need to be in horror
movies -- I look at a field and think, "no way I>m gonna pry a farmer
from his water wars to adopt Etch O Sketch kinematics."

[quote]Center
pivot motors are three phase 480 in the U.S. ï¿½The older ones used either
a single one horsepower motor or a horse and a half motor. ï¿½The newer
ones use motors half that size. ï¿½The older ones had 10 AWG Cu in the
span cable to power the pivots that were 1/4 mile long. ï¿½The newer ones
can get by with 12 AWG Cu to power the motors.
[/quote]
A heavier gauge cable isn>t going to crush the pivot.

[quote]ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½Tractors in my area are probably in the range of 150 to 200
horsepower or so. ï¿½Front wheel assist with duals rather than the four
wheelers Brett talks about.
ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½Take a 100 horsepower irrigation well motor with a pivot. ï¿½A
quarter mile run from the power supply to the center point where the
well might be. ï¿½That would take 250 or 350 MCM aluminum wire depending
on the voltage drop one wants.
[/quote]
They still use diesel irrigation pumps here. A crop insurance
adjuster assures me that they use diesel pumps in Florida as well.

Saturday I was out cycling and passed a field irrigated with miles of
aluminum pipe and a gazillion sprinklers being pumped by a diesel 30
feet from a power line.

Now _that_ would be easy.

[quote]ï¿½ ï¿½ You>d have to double the distance and double the amperage to make a
200 horsepower tractor run at the far end of the pivot.
[/quote]
OK.

[quote]ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½Then there would be the problem of getting the power to the fields
in the first place. ï¿½Power companies probably wouldn>t be all that eager
to put up lines that would be needed only part of the time.
[/quote]
I can>t even get UP to save $2.5 billion a year in diesel by
electrifying their main line in the desert.

Railroads are a much more obvious candidate than farms.

[quote]ï¿½ ï¿½ Most of the irrigation wells in my area are on interruptible power.
ï¿½ ï¿½The suppliers can shut them off by remote control if the load gets
too heavy from other uses. ï¿½Thats fine for irrigation but probably not
for field operations that need to get done in a timely manner.
[/quote]
Place Sandia dishes or PV in the "corners" clipped off by the circular
field.

Bret Cahill

Dean Hoffman · Guest

Dean Hoffman > wrote:
[quote]Mark wrote:
re cables to power electric tractors...

see "center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.

Mark

There>s a world of difference in the power requirements. Center
pivot motors are three phase 480 in the U.S. The older ones used either
a single one horsepower motor or a horse and a half motor. The newer
ones use motors half that size. The older ones had 10 AWG Cu in the
span cable to power the pivots that were 1/4 mile long. The newer ones
can get by with 12 AWG Cu to power the motors.
A little correction. That would be one motor per tower. Circle[/quote]
pivots usually have 7, 8, or sometimes 10 towers for a 1300 foot
machine. More drive units are needed for rougher ground.
[quote]Tractors in my area are probably in the range of 150 to 200
horsepower or so. Front wheel assist with duals rather than the four
wheelers Brett talks about.
Take a 100 horsepower irrigation well motor with a pivot. A
quarter mile run from the power supply to the center point where the
well might be. That would take 250 or 350 MCM aluminum wire depending
on the voltage drop one wants.
You>d have to double the distance and double the amperage to make a
200 horsepower tractor run at the far end of the pivot.
Then there would be the problem of getting the power to the fields
in the first place. Power companies probably wouldn>t be all that eager
to put up lines that would be needed only part of the time.
Most of the irrigation wells in my area are on interruptible power.
The suppliers can shut them off by remote control if the load gets too
heavy from other uses. Thats fine for irrigation but probably not for
field operations that need to get done in a timely manner.

Dean

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[/quote]

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Dean Hoffman · Guest

Mark wrote:
[quote]re cables to power electric tractors...

see "center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.

Mark
[/quote]
There>s a world of difference in the power requirements. Center
pivot motors are three phase 480 in the U.S. The older ones used either
a single one horsepower motor or a horse and a half motor. The newer
ones use motors half that size. The older ones had 10 AWG Cu in the
span cable to power the pivots that were 1/4 mile long. The newer ones
can get by with 12 AWG Cu to power the motors.
Tractors in my area are probably in the range of 150 to 200
horsepower or so. Front wheel assist with duals rather than the four
wheelers Brett talks about.
Take a 100 horsepower irrigation well motor with a pivot. A
quarter mile run from the power supply to the center point where the
well might be. That would take 250 or 350 MCM aluminum wire depending
on the voltage drop one wants.
You>d have to double the distance and double the amperage to make a
200 horsepower tractor run at the far end of the pivot.
Then there would be the problem of getting the power to the fields
in the first place. Power companies probably wouldn>t be all that eager
to put up lines that would be needed only part of the time.
Most of the irrigation wells in my area are on interruptible power.
The suppliers can shut them off by remote control if the load gets
too heavy from other uses. Thats fine for irrigation but probably not
for field operations that need to get done in a timely manner.

Dean

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Mark · Guest

On Jul 29, 10:49 pm, Dean Hoffman <""dh0496\"@ine$br#as&ka.com">
wrote:
[quote]Mark wrote:
re cables to power electric tractors...

see "center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.

Mark

There>s a world of difference in the power requirements. Center
pivot motors are three phase 480 in the U.S. The older ones used either
a single one horsepower motor or a horse and a half motor. The newer
ones use motors half that size. The older ones had 10 AWG Cu in the
span cable to power the pivots that were 1/4 mile long. The newer ones
can get by with 12 AWG Cu to power the motors.
[/quote]
I>m sorry you missed my point.

My point is not about the amount of power needed to run the
irrigators vs a tractor... My point was, if a machine can be
designed to distribute WATER through a PIPE to a large circular area
like that, then a similar machine can be designed to distribute a
power cable to a tractor over a similarly large area.

Mark

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]re cables to power electric tractors...

see ï¿½"center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.

Mark

ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ There>s a world of difference in the power requirements. ï¿½ Center
pivot motors are three phase 480 in the U.S. ï¿½The older ones used either
a single one horsepower motor or a horse and a half motor. ï¿½The newer
ones use motors half that size. ï¿½The older ones had 10 AWG Cu in the
span cable to power the pivots that were 1/4 mile long. ï¿½The newer ones
can get by with 12 AWG Cu to power the motors.

I>m sorry you missed my point.

My point is not about the amount of ï¿½power needed to run the
irrigators vs a tractor... ï¿½ My point was, if a machine can be
designed to distribute WATER through a PIPE ï¿½to a large circular area
like that, then a similar machine can be designed to distribute a
power cable to a tractor over a similarly large area.
[/quote]
That was exactly my reasoning last summer when the all-in-one pivot
idea was first introduced.

If they _already_ have the structure in place then they might as well
go all the way.

Then someone posted the speed is only 2 revolutions per day. Big
irrigator structures don>t move very fast so either you buy or rent a
lot of tractors or you take your time.

This might not be an issue if it>s automated. A radial drive
mechanism could plow a spiral field 24/7 or off peak/7. The illegal
crackdown is affecting farm labor costs in the SW, now $9.50/hr +
overtime.

The pivots will lose some land in the center but since they are
fallowing land anyway, they might as well go to an efficient irrigator
and fallow the land they cannot reach with a super pivot. Then
airline passengers will see a lot of green rings at 50,000 ft.

The linear irrigators would solve the lost land problem but would
require a control system to prevent binding or jamming.

To determine the size of the inner circle the spread sheet would have
to take into account any higher productivity and water savings/
cultivated land and labor savings if automated.

Bret Cahill

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]see ?"center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.

I posted the "super pivot" on sci.energy last summer. ï¿½The idea was to
get rid of the tractor altogether, just keep the wheels motor and the
impliments.

A conventional pivot moves pretty slow so the super pivot could have
several concentric areas so the tangential velocity wouldn>t vary too
much from the outer "tip speed" to the inner "boss."

A poster claiming to be from Nebraska said a conventional pivot sells
for $45,000, a pretty good deal considering the distance it spans. ï¿½In
something like a berry field it would pay for itself in a matter of
months.

A pivot, however, requires flat land and some of the square field is
"wasted." ï¿½Moreover, a grid-battery tractor is the cheapest way to get
the foot in the E feld door.

One wire.

One battery.

One tractor with the diesel replaced with an electric motor.

Do that first _then_ you can get fancy.

---
So get off your fat, lazy ass and do it instead of running your mouth.
[/quote]
Cite?

Show your calculations.

Totally huge.

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]LOL!
[/quote]
Huge.

Cite?

Show your calculations.


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